2017-09-03 21:04:54-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: So the reason I decided to restrict this just to House Thrax's chat is I didn't want players who feel their characters are in an antagonistic relationship with Thrax to chime in, and have it become an argument over perceptions with them trying to justify their character's hate on for Thrax. I didn't think it would be productive
2017-09-03 21:04:55-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot: awesome.
2017-09-03 21:07:38-0400 [-] [Thrax] Abbas: Okay, so... what is staff's persepctive on Thrax? Are we off track? Are we fine? Is there any staff directive for what we should do or not do? Or are we allowed freely to develop and take Thrax wherever the RP/Actions/Etc. go?
2017-09-03 21:08:01-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: So the reason we're talking to begin with is because it's obvious to me a lot of players in Thrax feel ganged up on. And I don't mind conflict at all, or want to defuse it normally, but when it's obvious most player sinvolved just aren't enjoying it at all, I don't really think it's healthy for the RP to be focused on doubling down on everything that players intensely dislike. Now to answer Abbas:
2017-09-03 21:10:13-0400 [-] [Thrax] Melinda is concerned, that it seems certain players are being rewarded to downtalk thrax. When is it ok for anyone to accuse the whole house of slaughtering innocents. Or being Forsaken by the Gods. It seems as if they are being allowed to icly down talk without retribution or retaliation by anyone.
2017-09-03 21:10:55-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: To me, that seems like purely an IC issue that should be handled ICly.
2017-09-03 21:11:12-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: I originally figured Thrax would be in an antagonistic position but be forced by necessity to work with most of the Compact. That hasn't happened, but what alarmed me is that because of the strands of the conflict, Thrax PCs found themselves -really- alienated from most of the core storylines going on. Like the average involvement in most of the stories happening outside of the Isles is the lowest of any fealty by a really big value. It's definitely the most insular fealty, which ICly is fine, but oocly is resulting in its players not getting into RP they really should. Like here's an example: in alpha, I planned for a major NPC antagonist for every great house fealty. The Gyre being Thrax's. There's a fair amount of other fealties involved in the Gyre plot. There's virtually no thrax involvement in the other 4 storylines
2017-09-03 21:11:13-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: I don't know that it is purely IC, though.
2017-09-03 21:11:22-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: The reason it's not a purely IC issue was because Mangata was perceived as approving of the sentiment.
2017-09-03 21:11:53-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: Several Thrax players have indicated it makes it near impossible to RP with anyone because 'they are Thrax.'
2017-09-03 21:12:25-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: THat was to Dagon
2017-09-03 21:13:09-0400 [-] [Thrax] Melinda: I have had that as well Sameera, and I have also seen people get blocked from reacting ic
2017-09-03 21:13:48-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Now to Dagon, Sameera, Melinda, Ian. I have a lot of thoughts about that, but Melinda can you explain what you mean about being blocked from reacting IC?
2017-09-03 21:14:35-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: I think one thing i've found is people get absolutely focused on 'THralldom being wrong.'
2017-09-03 21:15:44-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia: So how do we go about fixing the Thrax Isolation problem?
2017-09-03 21:15:48-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: Apostate, Ian talks to a lot of people, and I've only heard the other antagonists referenced obliquely, and never by people who really want to go into depth on the issue. It's not that I've been ICly locked out of RP (although the reasons Ian's not lock out of RP have a lot to do with him being fine with people occasionally giving him crap about his House, which most people are not), because that's definitely not the case, but not only has nobody asked for his help, nobody has even been willing to discuss the other antagonists with him.
2017-09-03 21:16:28-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: I think Melinda might be talking a little about the incidents with Petal and Aiilith and about how everyone jumped on Thrax about being upset about how they phrased some things.
2017-09-03 21:17:15-0400 [-] [Thrax] Titania: Do you mean the Beach rite Sameera?
2017-09-03 21:17:45-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: THat and Ailith's thing at some Thrax event. I forget the details about it but I know people were upset about it
2017-09-03 21:17:52-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: By design as a faction, Thrax was not supposed to be morally defensible. Like when you are taking offense at someone saying, 'We shouldn't be killing babies', that's really, really hard to defend. ICly, I'm ecstatic if people wanna defend that. But I'm deeply concerned when people get oocly upset that trying to defend that stance doesn't work
2017-09-03 21:17:59-0400 [-] [Thrax] Melinda: when I say blocked I am saying that some players feel intimidated to react ic. With Petal, and there was a recent thing ith Ian I believe at the grayson hall being downtalked and there was not a thing he could do. I know many players just do not know how we can react without A. being banned or B. PK which dose not happen here
2017-09-03 21:18:19-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia: Ailith telling everyone that Mangata wouldn't bless our ships because the Gods were angry with us?
2017-09-03 21:18:42-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: Let me give you the reasoning for Mangata reacting to Petal. Petal said a prayer that was factually correct. It was not very politic, but she was praying to the goddess about things that happened. PCs reacted to her words aggressively, and so Mangata reacted to refocus that event on her. It was an event to commune with Mangata, not to get offended about some social imperfections.
2017-09-03 21:18:47-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: THat was me, not Ian. (I think.)
2017-09-03 21:19:00-0400 [-] [Thrax] Melinda: correct, sorry Wash
2017-09-03 21:19:23-0400 [-] [Thrax] Victus: Here's one thing that's on my mind, what are generally the correct ways culturally for Thrax to be interacting with their vassals? From how it's been phrased it sounds as if the Isles works more as a confederacy and as I understand it, Donrai was considered a tyrant because he did awful things but also because he 'meddled' in other vassals affairs a lot. It's been hard figuring out where a line is between what's appropriate to say and act like, and what amount of power would actually blow up the Isles.
2017-09-03 21:19:39-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: Yeah, Ian didn't get downtalked because after the way Wash was treated, Ian was afraid to say anything.
2017-09-03 21:19:40-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: S'okay. I'm dealing with it IC. But what they slammed me for they gave Margot a pass for. It's entirely possible that it was motivated by reasons other than 'Thrax'.
2017-09-03 21:20:01-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: If you are ever oocly upset about RP, you honestly should not be participating it from a staff perspective. I do not think good RP ever results when someone is losing their temper in an ooc basis. And I have never even warned someone when their actions were purely IC, and PKs have happened here.
2017-09-03 21:20:40-0400 [-] [Thrax] Titania: People think Tianan lost her temper at Petal no, it was not petal sge was so upset at...Her prayer was just done at the right moment when she got mad....Tiana was upset for other reasons..
2017-09-03 21:21:18-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot: Well, I think Margot's probably the most 'mainland friendly' Thrax but that's for various reasons, including the fact that I've been RPing her for a long ass time
2017-09-03 21:21:26-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: That's fine, I'm not criticizing anyone's IC actions. But Mangata reacted to the IC situation, also for IC reasons. :)
2017-09-03 21:21:28-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Vassals always have thematic autonomy except in so far as taxes and calling their banners. That's true for all of the Compact. Donrai had far strictly than most highlords so it was tyrannical, yeah
2017-09-03 21:21:37-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot: And that she's also considered a 'victim of Donrai'
2017-09-03 21:22:22-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: Sameera freely admits to being an awful person. So.. the majority of what I know of is from what I hear on channel and from other players. Sameera's diagreeable nature is universal so I don't get much of the 'Because you're Thrax'. I get 'Sammera is awful but weirdly nice.' sort of things.
2017-09-03 21:22:45-0400 [-] [Thrax] Victus: When you say 'thematic autonomy' do you mean they can portray themselves as they wish, or they are objectively autonomous outside of owing taxes and military aid to their liege?
2017-09-03 21:22:55-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: The latter
2017-09-03 21:23:13-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Does that go all the way down the feudal chain?
2017-09-03 21:23:18-0400 [-] [Thrax] Victus: Okay, that clears up a lot of confusion
2017-09-03 21:23:21-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: This game is very far from a sandbox, I'll always overrule anyone coming up with something that conflicts with the world
2017-09-03 21:23:28-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: From what I understand.. Donrai wanted to plan everyone's marriages, how they lived their lives, etc.
2017-09-03 21:24:07-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: I was not around for it so I know little of the Donrai stuff.
2017-09-03 21:24:09-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Sameera- he didn't care about their lives except in so much, 'what is making Thrax more powerful', so he was domineering on that basis.
2017-09-03 21:25:10-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: Aha. So it was 'As long as it benefits me, I'll control everything' kind of thing?
2017-09-03 21:25:52-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera has only heard snipets of the Donrai stuff so whenever talks of him comes up she never knows exactly how to react.
2017-09-03 21:26:39-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: Sameera, if you're looking for info on what your character might know about him, you might check his page on the website, under RIP. It gives a general sense of what he was like, at least.
2017-09-03 21:26:42-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Mostly the largest examples of tyranny would be insisting on succession of other houses going to someone that was more easily controlled, with the implicit threat of force. That shouldn't have been allowed to happen, but Alaric IV was an extremely weak king. That should be taken as far far outside the normal in terms of theme
2017-09-03 21:29:15-0400 [-] [Thrax] Melinda: so about the theme. The thralls are apart of the theme, it is as far as I know very simular to the Serfs. So is it really in theme for the compact to be upset at Thralldom? or can staff explain what they thought of when designing them as part of the theme? I have heard many mixed information on Thralls
2017-09-03 21:30:48-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: Along the same vein as Melinda.. It would be nice to know what life was actually like for a person who was a thrall too. I just play off what I read in the files and what I heard from staff/other players.
2017-09-03 21:30:52-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: Okay. So. Ian talks with a couple of people involved with the Faith, and I've gotten a pretty strong sense that the general belief over in those quarters is that the gods in general are especially ill-disposed towards Thrax. It's the biggest argument Ian and Orazio have, when they argue, and Ailith apparently came out and said it to a bunch of people -- that the gods were angry with Thrax and wouldn't bless their ships. The original Mangata event, before it was deleted and re-added, referred to reconciliation with Mangata and made it clear that Thrax should attend. (Thralls are Orazio's big problem with Thrax.)
2017-09-03 21:31:10-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Now going back a bit, this does come up generally whenever one fealty finds itself in disagreement with the majority. Thralldom thematically just won't be viewed as okay by the Compact. That was something that caught me offguard by staff, because I saw it as a non-issue from an administrative standpoint and didn't think about it being repealed or changed during the game's lifecycle, but it's been something that's been focused on probably the -most- by players since it's abhorrent and an easy target. It's very in theme for any kind of soft version of slavery to be infuriating to the rest of the Compact, even if serfdom isn't all that much better. It's an easy target, and I don't really care from a game runner perspective if it's repealed or changed or not, and only concerns me when I see players oocly upset at being attacked over it.
2017-09-03 21:32:08-0400 [-] [Thrax] Victus: I've also felt some backlash in the past from the Faithful on account of old Victus' decision not to pay the teind, which was an event I'm still not 100% sure I understand overall. That may be more of a concern inlaid though with old player mentality vs new ones, where I have to come up with a reason for something I wouldn't have done in my version of the character.
2017-09-03 21:32:30-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: About the gods, yeah they were. There was like a half dozen reasons for that, and it isn't really true now because of the repentence stuff that Harald and some others did. Lemme explain what happened with the faith since most here weren't playing then
2017-09-03 21:32:34-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: So here's the timeline of that
2017-09-03 21:32:49-0400 [-] [Thrax] Halsim: I don't think that was the teind. I think that was paying for the paladins?
2017-09-03 21:33:14-0400 [-] [Thrax] Oliver: I have a question - There was talk about Thrax not being involved ICly in other outside plots/being alienated from the core storyline. Is that mostly being affected by people outside the fealty in your opinion? I.E. are people outside Thrax purposefully barring people from plots? How does that get fixed so that Thrax people are involved in the other core storylines?
2017-09-03 21:33:23-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: Ian, this is a problem with oocly discussing things on channels that happen IC. Ailith didn't say the gods were angry with Thrax and wouldn't bless their ships. Some might have interpreted that way (which is fine if they were there IC), but what she actually said was that if the goddess was hurt or upset, the Faith could not bless in her name. IC, 'the faith is not the boss of the gods'. So, while she reported that it seemed the gods were not in favor - and mangata specifically was wounded/upset - the OOC reports and chatter about that event have painted Ailith unfairly. This is why we say not to do that.
2017-09-03 21:33:34-0400 [-] [Thrax] Oliver: I don't know how Victus could be getting backlash from that. He wasn't even high lord, and Donrai supported the teind.
2017-09-03 21:33:52-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: Not the Teind, it IS about the Paladin beseeching ritual. Which was very expensive!
2017-09-03 21:33:58-0400 [-] [Thrax] Victus: Right, that. I get the two confused.
2017-09-03 21:33:59-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: Hellfrog, that was how it was explained to me ICly, when discussed ICly with people.
2017-09-03 21:34:34-0400 [-] [Thrax] Halsim: Yeah, I found that whole thing amusing from an IC and OOC perspective.
2017-09-03 21:34:41-0400 [-] [Thrax] Halsim: the paladins, that is.
2017-09-03 21:35:09-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Dawn as regent discovers that a ritual by the darkelves is a human sacrifice of 13 willing individuals who give their lives to bind and protect the twilight court from the Silence, which if it attacks and devours would then let the Archfiend of Oblivion enter the world and obliterate reality. That was intended to be a difficult choice since it was clearly blood magic, and what many would consider unambiguously evil, but would save the world. I wanted, as a game runner, to have a difficult, not clear cut choice since some wanted to look for alternatives. This isn't what people are mad about Thrax about, but I mention to clear up confusion. Donrai voted in favor of paying the Teind and was excommunicated by the Faith along with every highlord but Valardin, which was used as a powerplay by the Dominus Fawkuhl to justify trying to become regent and rule over the Compact.
2017-09-03 21:36:42-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Later when Tolamar Brand was marching on Arx, a few individuals discovered a divine ritual that would empower 5 individuals as paladins of the gods if they sacrificed enough to do so in an incredibly complex and unbelievably expensive ritual. Thrax was the only house that refused to help in the effort, the original Victus basically telling the Faith to go fuck themselves.
2017-09-03 21:37:49-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: That's where the 'gods are mad at Thrax' came from, but was intended to be a quiet thing where only a few individuals would try to repair that rift, and I didn't really account for the truly impressive game of telephone that would happen
2017-09-03 21:38:04-0400 [-] [Thrax] Halsim: Interesting, I didn't know that. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me at all.
2017-09-03 21:38:16-0400 [-] [Thrax] Halsim: That he refused, that is.
2017-09-03 21:38:20-0400 [-] [Thrax] Victus: As far as I know old Victus also didn't give much reasoning beyond "I do what I want"?
2017-09-03 21:39:01-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: I might have some more insight there. I'll page you.
2017-09-03 21:39:26-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Yeah I have no idea ooc or ic why he didn't. My problem is I really don't wanna railroad people so like, if someone is doing something that's a little alarming I don't wanna swoop in and also say, 'hey are you sure you wanna do that, it'll make the gods angry'
2017-09-03 21:39:50-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: Apostate, Orazio, ICly, in IC conversations that he and Ian have had ICly, has reiterated several times that Thrax isn't right with the Gods for other reasons. His main one is thralls, which are abhorrant to the god of freedom. Serfs, apparently, have a freedom to leave their land (even though that would make them villains, not serfs, by the definition of the word) and therefore are not abhorrant. Just thralls. Also, he claims (ICly) that there are no prisons anywhere in Avrum.
2017-09-03 21:40:14-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: long term imprisonment is not a thing
2017-09-03 21:40:19-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Officially anyways
2017-09-03 21:40:36-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: (That's a modern convention and we have more of a historical basis on crime there)
2017-09-03 21:40:50-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: From what I understand fromt he files.. Thrax intimidate THralls from leaving their Thrax areas and what not.
2017-09-03 21:40:56-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: Are serfs really free to leave their land?
2017-09-03 21:40:57-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Mostly because having a character offgrided permanently for a couple year stint is the same ooc as killing 'em
2017-09-03 21:41:00-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Yes
2017-09-03 21:41:04-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Serfs have freedom of travel
2017-09-03 21:41:09-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: With an asterick
2017-09-03 21:41:15-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: As they would almost certainly starve or get lost and die
2017-09-03 21:41:25-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Not like they have the means to afford provisions or can assure safe passage
2017-09-03 21:41:58-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: But it's against crown law to forbid travel without cause
2017-09-03 21:42:05-0400 [-] [Thrax] Victus: I'm assuming Thralldom is also one of those things where there may have been an intention of repentance and redeeming for Thrax? I know abolishing Thralldom has been in contention since game started, but as far as I know is still not exactly feasible given how much of Thrax's economy relies on it.
2017-09-03 21:42:07-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: They aren't bonded
2017-09-03 21:42:59-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: I think Max told me it would cost him like 10k to abolish thralldom in Darkwater
2017-09-03 21:43:27-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: ... We'd have a lot of manpower free up fast if we could jump to pure sailing ships with triangular sails, just to shamelessly grovel for that for the upteenth time. We could probably free a lot of thralls at that point.
2017-09-03 21:43:35-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: I mean the god of freedom is never gonna be okay with slavery-light in general sure, but I personally as staff don't have a stake in whether thrax -wants- to be okay with the god of freedom. They certainly can, and yeah Max was trying to abolish thralldom and that certainly wasn't at staff urging, tbh it was a gigantic pain in the ass
2017-09-03 21:43:37-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia: What does staff recommend to see that done?
2017-09-03 21:44:03-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: The god of freedom could totally speed free thralls along by inspiring someone on those lines.
2017-09-03 21:44:39-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: To be honest Ian I think like me and Tehom will probably approve that gigantic request on the basis you very painfully clearly know way more about naval history than me and he does and we aren't that invested so we're like 'sure why not'
2017-09-03 21:44:57-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian cheers!
2017-09-03 21:45:07-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian's google-fu is strong. And I have no life.
2017-09-03 21:45:47-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Arcelia, in regards to Thralldom?
2017-09-03 21:46:13-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: I like thralldom. It gives people like Sameera, who inherited her mom's debt pretty young, the ability to have a limited perspective on the world outside the Mourning Isles. I would rather not see it abolished but, I believe I am on the minority on that.
2017-09-03 21:46:42-0400 [-] [Thrax] Halsim: Nah, I'm the same Sameera.
2017-09-03 21:47:00-0400 [-] [Thrax] Melinda: Harold is the same as well
2017-09-03 21:47:06-0400 [-] [Thrax] Alarie: Do children still inherit the debt or has that been changed?
2017-09-03 21:47:14-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia: Yes, if people really want to see Thralldom gone.
2017-09-03 21:47:19-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: That's supposed to have changed.
2017-09-03 21:47:19-0400 [-] [Thrax] Denica is a reformist, not an abolitionist.
2017-09-03 21:47:25-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: THat was abolished very recently. Like 3 or 4 IC years ago?
2017-09-03 21:47:33-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima recently changed her stance.
2017-09-03 21:47:33-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia: Because Arcelia is all over following Fatima on this one. xD
2017-09-03 21:47:37-0400 [-] [Thrax] Alarie: OKay, I was't sure.
2017-09-03 21:47:40-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: My question there is, "Do you want to have a unique element that's unpopular and be attacked for it, because it does help distinguish you, or would you rather not deal with the RP of feeling ostracised because you practice a form of slavery"? The original proclamation by way way back by last Victus said houses can do whatever they want in terms of thralldom, so if someone said, 'it's no longer here in Stormguard' you absolutely can but I also have to be an arbiter of world consistency. Meaning that untangling an economy based on slave labor ain't easy, it's expensive and dangerous
2017-09-03 21:48:30-0400 [-] [Thrax] Titania: To be honest I think weven if we did not have slaves we still be ostracised.
2017-09-03 21:48:37-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: Right. To echo Apostate: it's totally fine to want to keep thralldom, or keep it IC. But then, you can't really get sensitive when other characters ICly disapprove and bring conflict about it.
2017-09-03 21:49:19-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia: I will go with whatever people want to do as a whole. If it is causing problems for other players that is fine, I will have Arcelia help remove it. If people want to keep it than I'll continue as I am. :)
2017-09-03 21:49:35-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: As -staff-, I never pictured it as being a big deal, frankly. I didn't think I'd ever have to have like, ooc talks on it. I certainly didn't write it being like, 'Oh players will feel pressure to change it and it'll eventually go away.' I was like, 'Thrax are the most reactionary so they probably have male primogeniture and thralldom'. That was pretty much it
2017-09-03 21:49:35-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: THe village Sameera did for Darkwaters was to help ease the finiancial burden of former thralls. For him it was entirely about abolishing Thralldom. For Sameera it was about giving those who were in thralldom a way to ease into 'free' society.
2017-09-03 21:50:43-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: @Hellfrog: It doesn't bother /me/ that people fuss about THralldom. It's only when they focus on it so much it derails the whole purpose of something.
2017-09-03 21:50:45-0400 [-] [Thrax] Victus: My main thing about Thralldom is that it feels like it's been ICly pushed as a needed abolishing so that Thrax can become more 'open' to the Compact, as Thralldom is something that seems very controversial with a lot of other characters in the city and those in powers. But at the same time it's been stated that abolishing Thralldom would be hugely costly for Thrax.
2017-09-03 21:50:48-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: Ian is ICly fine with being yelled at from time to time on the issue. OOCly, I think it's hard on the people who are in charge in Thrax that their choices are to plunge their House finances into absolute turmoil or to get yelled at ICly (and possibly also OOCly -- I don't talk OOCly to enough people to know) for not snapping their fingers and freeing the slaves.
2017-09-03 21:50:59-0400 [-] [Thrax] Victus: It feels like a pressure but not one we can act on, from the feedback I've been getting
2017-09-03 21:51:55-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Though to be honest serfdom is definitely a misnomer because it's nowhere close in Arvum to historical serfdom, it's pretty much the equvialent at best of a late middle ages yeoman, so the thrall = almost serf still has some really clear divisions in terms of afforded rights
2017-09-03 21:52:26-0400 [-] [Thrax] Melinda: right
2017-09-03 21:53:12-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia: Yeah, I remember clearing up serfdom with you a long time ago. Is there a helpfile set up to explain Thralldom and Serfdom in Arx?
2017-09-03 21:53:30-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: Apostate, the word you might be looking for is villain. I think those were the subsistance farmers who weren't chained to their land from the middle ages. I think.
2017-09-03 21:53:46-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: Harald would probably know. He's got a stronger grasp of history than I do.
2017-09-03 21:54:11-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Okay. I had guests so I am catching up here. Ailith definitely tried to say that Thrax did something wrong, not that the goddess was hurt.
2017-09-03 21:54:32-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: The thralldom file explains thralldom is looked down up by the Compact but I never found anything that fully explains WHY.
2017-09-03 21:54:46-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Because it's slavery light
2017-09-03 21:55:42-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: SHe /also/ mentioned that the Goddess was hurt, so it wasn't a good time, but that no blessings would be given out until Thrax had been 'brought back into the light'.
2017-09-03 21:55:45-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: Yeah, that was my assumption for it. It might be something to make a more solid explaination on because so many are intently focused on it.
2017-09-03 21:56:05-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: Because Arx is a progressive utopia, and Thrax having Thralls spits in that pretty soup. I like the conflict that comes from it, but Dagon is also versatile in that regard ICly. As for whether it should be abolished via an OOC decision, no, I do not think so -- unless people are really having trouble negotiating that conflict, I believe that it should remain an IC issue.
2017-09-03 21:56:37-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Yeah I mean obviously Dagon was written as a reformer that would find the institution morally repugnant. And I wanted that kind of possibility to exist
2017-09-03 21:56:43-0400 [-] [Thrax] Melinda honestly thinks that if staff wants the rest of the compact to include us, we need to make the changes for that to happen. Or am I mis understanding?
2017-09-03 21:56:48-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: Wash that isn't how I read it. And again, this is why you shouldn't discuss this stuff ooc. Because then it becomes your interpretation = OOC canon. And then people start villifying other /players/ instead of other characters.
2017-09-03 21:56:57-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: Wash, based on a couple IC conversations Evan ICly had with Orazio, my suspicion is that second part isn't a 'the gods hate you' comment, so much as 'the Faith is really, really pissed off right now'.
2017-09-03 21:57:41-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: I think all it was only bad phrasing on Ailith's part because my ineractions with her IC have not been terrible and she seems to realize when her phrasing is offending. So, Sameera is not on board with the 'she's out tog et us!' mindset some have.
2017-09-03 21:58:02-0400 [-] [Thrax] Titania: It seems HF that every feels the same IC and OOC about the Ailith stuff *shrugs*
2017-09-03 21:58:13-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: Titania, that's not true at all, and also not helpful.
2017-09-03 21:58:18-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot: to be honest I would like to be differant and have something to work with RP wise rather than melt into the pot.
2017-09-03 21:58:27-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: I'm not trying to influence your rp, I'm explaining why the rules of the game are the way they are.
2017-09-03 21:58:30-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot notes belatedly
2017-09-03 21:58:56-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: If you don't like the rules of the game, I'm sorry, but they aren't likely to change.
2017-09-03 21:58:57-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Melinda, what -I- want, and staff want, is people to be okay with the natural consequences of their actions, and be willing to create RP about conflict rather than immediately shut down in the face of it, or move past it if it is not their cup of tea
2017-09-03 21:59:00-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: ... I'm not sure how we can talk about the game in this meeting without talking about the game, though, HF?
2017-09-03 21:59:16-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: I'm okay with things being different. I'm okay with the Faith having a problem with Thrax, even Thrax and all it's vassals. I'm not okay with a player saying something ICly and then being told OOCLy it's not true without it being recanted ICly.
2017-09-03 21:59:37-0400 [-] [Thrax] Alarie: I conversed in messenger with Ailith on Alarissa re: the mangata/refusal to bless ships. It's shuffled off past the 40, so I can't acecss it anymore, but it was, to my understandign that the faith was uncertain that a) Mangata would even grant the blessing and b) if they were to go ahead and do it, it would be useless and not protect until Mangata was healed
2017-09-03 22:00:11-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: How to deal with Thralldom and still staying inuque might be something staff and Thrax players need to talk about in a specific chatsession for it.
2017-09-03 22:00:26-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Then why is she talking about 'bring Thrax into the light' before blessings can be given? It's like she said something IC, decided it was over the top and is trying to walk it back OOCly without admitting she screwed up.
2017-09-03 22:00:49-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Okay like, they aren't AD&D clerics. When they say words there's no glowing light or going to be a +1 that pops up over the ships' hull man, there is literally no possible way for them to ever know that
2017-09-03 22:01:17-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia: @Mangata@ What I was told about that IC, Alarie, is that the Faith didn't want to tax Mangata after we knew she was in pain via Titania's feeling her pain. The Faith didn't want to stress her after she was attacked by a being that is considered to be roughly her equal in power. At some point that got twisted to what Ailith told everyone. That is my understanding.
2017-09-03 22:02:03-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Okay let's not discuss Ailith's actions since it's not helpful, I particularly never want trying to parse the ooc motivations or intentions behind another player's RP, that's basically never productive
2017-09-03 22:02:14-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: That makes perfect sense. Someone needs to say that ICly, publicly enough that the RP going the other direction stops.
2017-09-03 22:02:57-0400 [-] [Thrax] Alarie: @arcelia Yeah, I mean, after the shuffle abck and forth it just seeemed liek the general jist was, now is not the right time to do it, wait for a sign that she's not taxed/healed
2017-09-03 22:03:02-0400 [-] [Thrax] Abbas: I have a hard time discussing this stuff. Because most of these issues are IC. And I don't take OOC offense to it. Re: Ailith's refusal. Abbas ICly hates the clergy because of it. But it's not OOC. It's an IC reaction of a human element of the faith.
2017-09-03 22:03:27-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: What Abbas said.
2017-09-03 22:03:31-0400 [-] [Thrax] Denica: ^
2017-09-03 22:03:32-0400 [-] [Thrax] Abbas: A lot of times I see people get upset because of that OOCly. When it's not. Those things should be kept in game. Sort of like some of my choices.
2017-09-03 22:03:46-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Right, that's more what me and HF are getting at and in agreement with Abbas. What -we- as staff want to see is just rolling with issues IC but also taking them in directions that's not inherently self-destructive
2017-09-03 22:03:46-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Okay, without parsing her motivations, it appears to me like the things that were said ICly are either a symptom of or an example of a growing bias against Thrax that staff never intended to exist.
2017-09-03 22:03:52-0400 [-] [Thrax] Victus: I'm in the same boat as Abbas and Fatima here, I'm just sad to see the backlash from it if people are acting on IC knowledge that is thematically incorrect.
2017-09-03 22:03:57-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: I don't know the details on it but, as I said, Sameera's interactions with Ailith have been good.
2017-09-03 22:03:58-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia: But a lot of people are getting upset about these things OOC, which is a problem. :(
2017-09-03 22:04:02-0400 [-] [Thrax] Melinda nods to Abbas
2017-09-03 22:04:03-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: I think what Wash is trying to get at is that there's been a lot of IC discussion between characters (rather than players) about what Ailith said, and how it has been perceieved. I know that Ian has talked ICly with Orazio about her. When Ian tried to talk ICly with Orazio about her, Orazio took it OOC and declared that she hadn't understood something because she was new, and that I (Ian's player) should just have Ian (the character) let it go. The problem is that EITHER we need to OOCly agree that Ailith OOCly made a mistake, or the people who are OOCly telling people like me to do so need to stop.
2017-09-03 22:04:37-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia: Yeah, what I mentioned was stuff that happened IC not OOC.
2017-09-03 22:04:47-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: You need to not get offended and defensive ooc about ic things.
2017-09-03 22:04:53-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: Because if everything is kept strictly IC, then the IC resentment of characters towards other characters doesn't go away.
2017-09-03 22:05:03-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia: What Orazio said to me was IC. :) And I've not offense to any of this OOC at all.
2017-09-03 22:05:24-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: For the record I don't take this game with me when I log off if that makes sense. Fatima has contention with a few people, which may or may not get resolved. I never want people to walk away thinking I dislike the players, because I absolutely do /not/.
2017-09-03 22:05:30-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: Characters do what you tell them to do. If you decide they should let something go, you can usually come up with a plausible reason they would. \
2017-09-03 22:05:48-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Generally that's true.
2017-09-03 22:06:01-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: We aren't talking about an IC situation where someone killed your dog, here.
2017-09-03 22:06:06-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: (which would be unforgivable)
2017-09-03 22:06:12-0400 [-] [Thrax] Titania: So the ooc meating is done?
2017-09-03 22:06:24-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Nah I'm still going it just timed out due to lack of poses in my room
2017-09-03 22:06:55-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: HF, I did. But this was a private conversation between two players in one instance. What I'm saying is that most people have been told nothing OOCly. If there were a post put up to the tune of 'Ailith's player is new and figuring stuff out, and she made a mistake, so can we all just cut her some slack', I'm betting everyone would be as cool with it as I was.
2017-09-03 22:07:22-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: My natural instinct is to keep things IC, always. Perhaps Ailith's mistake can be addressed ICly, in some manner?
2017-09-03 22:07:22-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: I doubt it I said those words specifically in thrax chat
2017-09-03 22:07:28-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Almost verbatim
2017-09-03 22:07:30-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: lol
2017-09-03 22:07:35-0400 [-] [Thrax] Titania: Ahhs okay and no...I diagree no one should be telling someone how their character should react IC...Unless its staff retconning something or realized a mistake was made.
2017-09-03 22:07:37-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Here's something I would like to have clarified. IC deception. If you are rping something that is intentionally misleading or a blatant lie. Should you be making rolls to accompany those manipulations?
2017-09-03 22:07:49-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: It's not Thrax that needs to let it go though. There were non-thrax at that meeting and they got the same impression we did.
2017-09-03 22:08:04-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Not JUST thrax.
2017-09-03 22:08:22-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: I think that might be a mutual choice for the moment, Fatima, until it turns into a coded system? Idk -- but I'd never want you to roll for anything like that in RP between us, personally.
2017-09-03 22:08:32-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: Takes the fun out of it.
2017-09-03 22:08:42-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Wash I disagree, and let me explain why
2017-09-03 22:09:30-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: I ask because, I feel that there is quite a bit of that in this game in general. Whether people know they're being misleading is just another thing entirely. The reason I would ask for a roll is for clarification. A lot of people go off of hearsay and if their character is ignorant of the truth but plays off that. They shouldn't have to roll and it helps sort out what people are hearing OOCly and what people are seeing ICly.
2017-09-03 22:09:47-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: That's a rule of the game. We absolutely insist people cut new players slack for not having things down pat OOC. Please read "help rp etiquette".
2017-09-03 22:10:01-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: I'm not referring to new players HF.
2017-09-03 22:10:12-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: She is talking to Wash, I believe
2017-09-03 22:10:21-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima pistol fingers.
2017-09-03 22:10:23-0400 [-] [Thrax] Titania: Shes talking to me and Wash Fati
2017-09-03 22:10:44-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: The destruction of every Thrax ship in harbor, that was a result of player actions. That wasn't anything I planned, it was something that, 'Oh my god someone did that?' type level of extreme from a story request. The IC response from that wasn't like, 'Let's gang up on Thrax', that was PCs seeing a very legitimate degree of concern. Sure, of course it sucked for Thrax but it wasn't like anyone planned to ruin Thrax's day with it, and it's way off to take it as like an instance of ganging up on Thrax.
2017-09-03 22:11:25-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: Apostate, whenever you said it, either I missed it or I wasn't on channel at the time. There are probably a lot of people who still don't realize that the stuff their characters are ICly pissed at Ailith the character about is actually a mistake that Ailith the player made and wasn't intended to be IC at all.
2017-09-03 22:11:58-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Yea I'll correct it as it coems up but it's now about what she said/did in the event anyways which is fine to take IC issue with
2017-09-03 22:12:00-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian: I would be really surprised if a post on the +bboards setting things straight didn't clear a lot of that up.
2017-09-03 22:12:04-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia: I heard was was done OOC and I have to agree that if I were staff I'd have done something similar to what Apostate did.
2017-09-03 22:12:27-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Alright, so no clarification on the social systems?
2017-09-03 22:13:29-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: I'd honestly rather not have deception type rolls or checks right now currently Fatima, I don't want to define social systems before I define social systems or have ad hoc things besides just players doing things by consent without formal systems to determine it
2017-09-03 22:13:52-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Frankly I've always found lie-detection retarded outside of magic and will never put in any kind of truth serum type stuff if it's up to me
2017-09-03 22:13:53-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: MY only mild bother is sometimes it feels like I need to be 'unified' on something I don't know anything of IC.
2017-09-03 22:14:12-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Alright then, good to know. I think what I was referring to was being a better diplomat than say the player is.
2017-09-03 22:14:44-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: I only 'lie-detect' when the opposing player specifically goes 'X is obviously lying.' or along those lines.
2017-09-03 22:14:46-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: I don't really wanna enforce any of that before I put in coded social combat, last thing I want to do is arbitrate purely player scenes of unregulated opt ins
2017-09-03 22:15:18-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Like there are times when I'm in scene with someone and I feel like it would totally be going a different way because my character has a handle on this. This is what she does, but the human element means people are going to make emotional decisions based on their personal feelings as a player and not from the perspective of the character.
2017-09-03 22:15:22-0400 [-] [Thrax] Melinda has to go.
2017-09-03 22:15:53-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Moot point though, since the systems haven't been implemented.
2017-09-03 22:16:39-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Right that will all come up later.
2017-09-03 22:16:54-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian has seen characters on WoD games say horribly mean things to people and then make really good social rolls and declare that nobody's character is allowed to be offended by being called whatever name they were called because of a seven success charisma+subterfuge roll, or whatever. I'd really, really like to avoid that being opened up as a possibility here. It's possibly my least favorite aspect of games that allow it.
2017-09-03 22:17:14-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: There's no way to tell whether or not a player is making a decision based on what their character would do or what they would do...? I don't quite understand, Fatima. I would hope that we're all making IC decisions to the best of our ability, and building a story, or else why play here?
2017-09-03 22:17:15-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Cool, cool. Also, I feel like because I was misinformed on how fealty and the vassals autonomy worked that I made some decisions I wouldn't otherwise have done.
2017-09-03 22:17:23-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: So are you saying, definitively, as staff, that Ailith made a mistake OOC, that there is no discord between Mangata and Thrax?
2017-09-03 22:17:29-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Which is fine, I'll deal with it ICly but it does indeed suck.
2017-09-03 22:17:31-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: No Ian, I'd never go that direction, it is contrary to my design philosophy
2017-09-03 22:17:48-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian whews.
2017-09-03 22:17:50-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Anyways let's not debate social systems right now
2017-09-03 22:17:52-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia: I see no problem with backing RP with rolls but people have to realize that some people are going to react poorly even if you roll.
2017-09-03 22:18:01-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia nod, nods.
2017-09-03 22:18:10-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: No, Wash, not even remotely. What we are saying as staff is that you should keep your interpretation of IC events off of OOC channels and cut people slack if they are new and tell you that.
2017-09-03 22:18:11-0400 [-] [Thrax] Titania find a lot of the Mangata and Thrax stuff very fustrating...
2017-09-03 22:18:45-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: ...I mean, is there ever a surefire way to be like 'Oh, yup, Mangata is def angry'.
2017-09-03 22:18:53-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: So since she hasn't told me that, I should not be cutting her slack?
2017-09-03 22:18:55-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera doesn't really know much about it, honestly. "BUT Sameera is an oddball and a Shaman."
2017-09-03 22:18:58-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: Dagon, probably not unless she's angry at you.
2017-09-03 22:19:15-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: Well, now you know she is new, so yeah, you should be. This isn't rocket surgery, man. :)
2017-09-03 22:19:16-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: I just don't understand the dilemma then, but I'm definitely not OOCly invested.
2017-09-03 22:19:23-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Right, what Hellfrog said. And no Dagon, by intent, like I don't want to have glowing god barometers
2017-09-03 22:19:48-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: Dude, but like, my mana is at two. That's gotta count for something.
2017-09-03 22:19:59-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: But if she doesn't think it was a mistake, then am I still IC if I react as if it wasn't something she said?
2017-09-03 22:20:02-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: Kidding. Sorry -- probably distracting.
2017-09-03 22:20:25-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: You can do what you want IC, Wash. Just stop complaining about her on channels.
2017-09-03 22:20:46-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: You got it.
2017-09-03 22:21:35-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: Before we close this out (if that's where we're headed) what's the down-low on how far you guys will let conflict go? That's one thing that I've heard varying levels of success on.
2017-09-03 22:21:46-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Anyways, that was kind of a gigantic segue, so let me sum up for the poor bastards that will skim this
2017-09-03 22:22:06-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: Like, what do I have to do to assassinate Edain?
2017-09-03 22:22:15-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: I think the only thin Hellfrog and Apostate are saying is enough abotu Ailith's stuff?
2017-09-03 22:22:37-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: Otherwise, questions are still open.
2017-09-03 22:22:50-0400 [-] [Thrax] Titania: So I have a Question well more a fustration, I have been working my butt of with the Mangata thing and the visions and trying to mend things with her and Thrax but then just to have otehrs be brought into it that are not part of thrax.....Is that suppose to be or was that done cause oh a "Hmm this is not going how it should let me send them help?"
2017-09-03 22:23:37-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: We're very okay with thrax doing whatever about thrall. Just for the love of god, if you opt for things that are going to upset eveyrone else, then roll with those consequences rather than getting oocly upset about them, and find other ways to collaborate with the rest of the player base so you aren't increasingly isolated from other RP.
2017-09-03 22:23:45-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: ^^^
2017-09-03 22:24:26-0400 [-] [Thrax] Ian waves and scoots.
2017-09-03 22:24:27-0400 [-] [Thrax] Abbas: I try to help new players. When new Victus came on I ICly took the blame for the murder blanket deal even though it wasn't a thing done in a silo. There was a shift in how the character was played and to help the transition I took sort of a stance of adapting some of Old Victus methodologies and carried them forward. I felt it helped Victus not come into a shitstorm. I don't mind being perceived negative ICly. Most people that know me OOCly know I'm everything. And those who assume things about my player I just dismiss; because they don't truly know me and I can't control that. I get very little Thraxians that come to me about my decisions. I see them defend me though. Don't do so out of obligation. It's okay not to like my character or my decisions. I'm approachable ICly and OOCly for concerns. I play a sometimes rough character and my actions impact a lot of Thrax. If I ever do something and you would object... come approach Abbas. He may bend. IC interactions can impact the outcome. Maybe he would do something another way.
2017-09-03 22:24:42-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Okay Titania, I write all of those, and I think you might be misinterpreting some of those. They aren't like, 'You are doing wrong, get these other people', those are, 'If yuo do what you need to do alone, you will die. Strongly advise you get to get more help, since Thrax will perish if it stands alone'
2017-09-03 22:25:19-0400 [-] [Thrax] Abbas: ** know I'm everthing but an asshole.
2017-09-03 22:25:31-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Lol what Abbas said. Again.
2017-09-03 22:25:32-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: And like, they are showing ways to get stronger, and story angles, they aren't trying to shut you down
2017-09-03 22:26:13-0400 [-] [Thrax] Titania nods, "ok"
2017-09-03 22:26:55-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera has been trying to involve people in the investigations she's been doing. "I, belatedlyl, realized Sameera's limited trust in people was kind of unfair to others who want to be involved in Thrax plot investigations."
2017-09-03 22:27:21-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: Which reminds me.. I still need to catch Arce. Things keep coming up to meddle with meeting.
2017-09-03 22:27:26-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: The good thing about such a collaborative experience is that it's very easy to trust people, because srsly, wtf consequences can they do to you?
2017-09-03 22:27:34-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: Abbas murdered a whole island, didn't he? I think ya'll are safe.
2017-09-03 22:28:27-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: I know that part of the themes of the game surround maintaining the compact, stronger together than apart. I believe that there are many elements inside Thrax that want to participate in outside events, story events and everything. If something comes my way, I'm going to jump on it with both feet.
2017-09-03 22:28:29-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera does remind of @bbread Thrax/31. though. "while several are around."
2017-09-03 22:28:35-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: I know this doesn't directly pertain to Thrax, but it kind of affects the whole game. I am getting mixed accounts from numerous people and I am not sure even they know the theme is for Observers. Can we settle this once and for all, so people know. What are Observers and what are their functions supposed to be?
2017-09-03 22:28:59-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: I understood them to be like assessors for the king that are suspected of being spies.
2017-09-03 22:29:03-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: Observers?
2017-09-03 22:29:10-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera hasn't even heard of them.
2017-09-03 22:29:32-0400 [-] [Thrax] Denica: The former Diplomat org.
2017-09-03 22:29:43-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Everyone is going to have a different interpretation but I kinda wanted staff to clarify so we can know for sure.
2017-09-03 22:29:44-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: They are people the king says, 'I need someone to go to BFE and find out what's going and come back and tell me'. They are just official crown representatives who go to trouble spots and then report back to the crown
2017-09-03 22:29:47-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: http://play.arxgame.org/topics/org/153/
2017-09-03 22:30:13-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: So they aren't spies?
2017-09-03 22:30:22-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: They are the official 'observe/report' for the crown. To whom, everyone owes fealty!
2017-09-03 22:30:30-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: VICTUS! SAMEERA FOR THRAX DIPLOMAT!
2017-09-03 22:30:31-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: Does it need to be so specific?
2017-09-03 22:30:41-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Well to whom the Crownsworn and direct vassals owe fealty HF.
2017-09-03 22:30:47-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: See, this is why people get confused.
2017-09-03 22:30:57-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: I have been told you owe your fealty directly to your Liege.
2017-09-03 22:30:58-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: No, they aren't spies. I mean anyone could be a spy, but the org is not a spy org unless the king passes something to be done on the downlow, but he could do that to a member of the king's own, whispers, whatever
2017-09-03 22:31:17-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot doesn't think you're a spy if everyone knows you report to the crown. There's nothing 'sneaky' about it.
2017-09-03 22:31:20-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: They are very specifically NOT crownsworn
2017-09-03 22:31:25-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: Great Houses absolutely owe fealty to the crown.
2017-09-03 22:31:26-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: I have a sister that works as an observer IRL.
2017-09-03 22:31:38-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Yes they do, but Kennex does not owe it's fealty to the Crown.
2017-09-03 22:31:45-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Kennex owes it's fealty to Grimhall.
2017-09-03 22:31:49-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Yeah.
2017-09-03 22:31:58-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: I feel like that borderlines the whole meddling in other vassals affairs.
2017-09-03 22:32:08-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: Which owes fealty to Thrax, which owes fealty to the King.
2017-09-03 22:32:14-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: If Victus had "observers" getting in Darkwater business, then it would be an issue.
2017-09-03 22:32:32-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: To me.. it would be automatically assumed everyone owes fealty to the king by default of the chain of command.
2017-09-03 22:32:43-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: Mmm, not really.
2017-09-03 22:32:45-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Ultimately it's up to the king. If he is like, 'What's going on with the darkwater' and asked thrax members and then said, 'okay great but I'm sending someone I trust out there to have a look', there goes an observer
2017-09-03 22:33:04-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: The chain of command is everything though. If Grimhall calls it's banners to battle against the King. Kennex owes it's allegiance to Grimhall.
2017-09-03 22:33:21-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: So no, Sameera. We don't by de facto all owe direct fealty to the King.
2017-09-03 22:33:25-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Wait. Why is this a Kennex thing again?
2017-09-03 22:33:30-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Example/
2017-09-03 22:33:40-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: Kennex is also the only PC Marchy atm
2017-09-03 22:33:41-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot does think this is an ic issue too. The Observers are fairly new, and still working our their MO icly
2017-09-03 22:33:45-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: I could make up House names if it makes you feel more comfortable.
2017-09-03 22:33:51-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Oh.
2017-09-03 22:34:05-0400 [-] [Thrax] Halsim: Yeah, when I first saw it, I immediately thought 'oh, staff is trying to get more Compact cohesion!' Which is great. But that really just underlines Fatimas point.
2017-09-03 22:34:08-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Margot that is a fair point but I just want to be sure what is permissible.
2017-09-03 22:34:31-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: The fact is that you can pass observers down the chain as well as up it.
2017-09-03 22:34:31-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot does know at least in the upper ranks of the observers there's some back and forth about how to manage conflict of interest issues.
2017-09-03 22:34:49-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: I acted ICly on information I thought was permissible but I was wrong. That's a big deal for me as the player because it's like. No that wouldn't have made sense to do. I wouldn't have done it.
2017-09-03 22:35:11-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: King says to High Prince: 'Send my observer to the March." High Prince says to Duke: 'Send this guy to the march."
2017-09-03 22:35:15-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: Was it OOCly retconned, or just misinformation, Fatima?
2017-09-03 22:35:27-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Wash, that isn't what happened.
2017-09-03 22:35:35-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot nods, Fatima whe I'm not sure what is icly acceptable' I ask staff. Cause I have had those issues too
2017-09-03 22:35:40-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Well, it can be handwaved as what happens.
2017-09-03 22:35:42-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: You don't all owe direct fealty to the King, but the fact that the people you owe fealty to, do, somewhere up the chain, is pretty important. It's not like Thrax is going to go to bat against the King to protect Darkwater's privacy if something weird is going on, because that looks p suspicious. Sometimes it's better not to exercise your rights.
2017-09-03 22:35:56-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: King says to Tuko from House Grihmall, go to Darkwater and investigate this. (This is my issue)
2017-09-03 22:36:34-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Margot I make sure to do so now but hey, we all have to learn somehow right? lol
2017-09-03 22:36:44-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot: oh for the sures.
2017-09-03 22:36:48-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: You could just go 'Hey. We got people on this already. Can't you send your person to work with us instead of aorund us?'
2017-09-03 22:36:53-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Like this is my first MU.
2017-09-03 22:37:03-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: There's a lot of political ramifications there, lots of stuff to react to ICly. Did the observer go through the proper channels? Did the king's minister choose an observer that would be respectful. Stuff like that.
2017-09-03 22:37:07-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: I come from a different gaming world entirely and so I am easily mind blown by how different it is.
2017-09-03 22:37:16-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: It's not inappropriate for the crown to send a representative to a vassal for input though. I mean, you don't want to literally shoot the messenger
2017-09-03 22:37:39-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: How would that be handled if it were discovered Apostate?
2017-09-03 22:37:50-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: If thrax murdered a crown observer?
2017-09-03 22:37:52-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot: the Org stuff says that generally when an Observer is known to be 'On Duty' they're given leeway as they're known to be reporting directly to the crown. Though I understand that it is more gray when they're not 'on duty' so to speak.
2017-09-03 22:37:54-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Probably not great
2017-09-03 22:38:04-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: I mean I'd hope to god they would cover it up
2017-09-03 22:38:11-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: LOL
2017-09-03 22:38:14-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Otherwise they just started a rebellion.
2017-09-03 22:38:20-0400 [-] [Thrax] Alarie throws a rug over the body.
2017-09-03 22:38:23-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima brushes that poor Observer npc under the rug.
2017-09-03 22:38:27-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Dammit Alarie!
2017-09-03 22:38:35-0400 [-] [Thrax] Alarie: "I make good rugs!
2017-09-03 22:38:36-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Yeah like, that's the whole point of like intrigue. Where you do the things you really, really, really should not own up to publically
2017-09-03 22:38:58-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Not everything should be settled with a war or a big confrontation of armies when it's just, 'bob is a problem'
2017-09-03 22:39:11-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Yea. I agree whole heartedly.
2017-09-03 22:39:18-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Sending an observer is definitely a check and balance on the vassal system. If a vassal of the king is mistreating his own vassals, that observer will learn.
2017-09-03 22:39:32-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Bob is a problem and we need to deal with him. He is selling scuma to the elves.
2017-09-03 22:39:33-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: No one likes to be audited
2017-09-03 22:39:44-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: But most don't kill the tax guy
2017-09-03 22:39:47-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot: ^^^
2017-09-03 22:39:55-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Observers are basically just non-tax based IRS agents.
2017-09-03 22:40:03-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Or maybe tax based. They can do both.
2017-09-03 22:40:28-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: It was important to notice that a distinction for appropriate conduct was made however. Let's all note that for the future. >.>
2017-09-03 22:40:32-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Just sayin.
2017-09-03 22:40:50-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Still, they also aren't criminal investigators- that is firmly the inquisition. They are the more open ended 'messenger', and I almost called them messengers but I thought it would way too confusing
2017-09-03 22:41:09-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Little bit. Good call.
2017-09-03 22:41:18-0400 [-] [Thrax] Titania: Okay so....I have a question then
2017-09-03 22:41:18-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia: People don't trust the Inquisition either! xD
2017-09-03 22:41:29-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Only the bad guys!
2017-09-03 22:41:30-0400 [-] [Thrax] Edward: So how far will the crown be willing to go to interfere in another vassal or House's fealty's right to rule is they find something they disagree with. Aka House Navegant has decided that all women will now only have one arm so all women in Navegant have had their choice of arm cut off - as a silly example.
2017-09-03 22:41:35-0400 [-] [Thrax] Halsim eyes Arcelia, makes notes.
2017-09-03 22:41:42-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot's impression, as one, is it's not a 1 way thing. They don't just observe they speak for as well. I think Envoys is a good nick name.
2017-09-03 22:42:05-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: I think that's a question that gets answered ICly, because we have a PC king.
2017-09-03 22:42:05-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia: Its okay Halsim, I still love them. xD I just had a scene with Laric last night. ^.^
2017-09-03 22:42:28-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: See, now they speak for the King though too?
2017-09-03 22:42:30-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia: I think it is important to note, just like earlier, that it is IC and if people IC don't want other people in their business(reasonable) than that is just it... its IC. People don't trust the Inquisition and Observers because they get into other people's business. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.
2017-09-03 22:42:36-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: That's a problem. Conflict of interest right there.
2017-09-03 22:42:52-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: Margot, maybe sort of, if the king is sending them for a specific message like a courier. But they dont' like, negotiate or attempt to settle things. That's a diplomatic duty.
2017-09-03 22:43:01-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: The Faith is often more the moral arbiter of the Compact in terms of bad behavior in a vassal, if the immediate liege won't act. The crown probably -won't- interfere at all unless it's a huge extreme. In the, 'lord decided to execute every person with red hair' lunacy, if their lieges won't move, templars often will
2017-09-03 22:43:33-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Whoa, whoa. Titania's question. >.> What was it Tania? I wanna know.
2017-09-03 22:43:48-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: But it's a vested interest in a lord to put down insane vassals more often than not
2017-09-03 22:43:48-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot nods that's what I mean HF.
2017-09-03 22:44:39-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia: So we can make moves against Houses that have lost their minds if that becomes a thing?
2017-09-03 22:45:19-0400 [-] [Thrax] Titania: So about the Observers, say for example after the shrine stuff Clarian asked Tiana to report on the situation in thrax so she did, he already knew what she had to tell him, so then he then requested her to go back find out what everyone was doing and or planning to do and report back...Is that not on the line of being a spy? I am asking so I am clear on it.
2017-09-03 22:45:20-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Wait. Wait. Hold on. There's a clue floating around talking about how one properly deals with a vassal and avoids legal repercussions. *cough* Pravus *cough*
2017-09-03 22:46:03-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: Titania, you're not really a spy if you are there in an official capacity, telling people "I am here observing for the crown. Whatcha doin?"
2017-09-03 22:46:07-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Yea, that's the kind of stuff I've been observing about the observers.
2017-09-03 22:46:34-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Hellfrog but the Observers, certain Observers have /not/ been transparent.
2017-09-03 22:46:43-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: They have been very deceptive in how they gather information.
2017-09-03 22:47:05-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: That's fine, too, I mean, everyone has their ways.
2017-09-03 22:47:22-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: That's still legal?
2017-09-03 22:47:28-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Just not morally acceptable??
2017-09-03 22:47:39-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: Are you asking if it's legal to be a little sneaky? I'm not sure what you're asking here.
2017-09-03 22:48:04-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Is it legal to gather tactical or sensitive political data on a vassal that is not yours?
2017-09-03 22:48:17-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Generally that seems to fall into the same category as undercover police work.
2017-09-03 22:48:22-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Troop movements, fortified positions, that sort of stuff.
2017-09-03 22:48:27-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: It's not illegal.
2017-09-03 22:48:53-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Right but this is not a police state. It's a feudal monarchy that operates within it's own paradigm. That once again crosses the threshold of meddling in a vassals affairs.
2017-09-03 22:48:54-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia: But like with everything else if the Observers do go about things without transparency they have to deal with that IC reputation that they bring upon themselves.
2017-09-03 22:49:05-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: There's not really a legal concept of classified information, just it would look pretty sus
2017-09-03 22:49:16-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Okie doke. Noted.
2017-09-03 22:49:38-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot thinks if the person who's privacy is violated has a problem they would take it up with the crown?
2017-09-03 22:49:45-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: If they knew.
2017-09-03 22:49:46-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: The reason behind the "don't meddle in vassal affairs", just for clarity, is a setting tenet because we don't want people being micromanaged or having their RP gated by having to clear everything they do with one person - like the High Lord. It's not intended to discourage political scheming.
2017-09-03 22:50:06-0400 [-] [Thrax] Halsim: GEnerally speaking, Compact Great Houses are not at odds with each other, so knowing military and political information isn't like 'giving information to the enemy'.
2017-09-03 22:50:06-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Like, if Fatima started asking if Count Bob had a wine taster and if his brothers were happy with his rule, that would be pretty sus, but not gonna be illegal
2017-09-03 22:50:21-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima chuckles.
2017-09-03 22:50:44-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: So people can just tell the Observers to mind their own business? Got it.
2017-09-03 22:51:08-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: I mean, they can. They should probably think about what trouble that might cause them, and if it's worth it. But then, that's true of all IC actions.
2017-09-03 22:51:56-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: What sort of trouble might that bring them?
2017-09-03 22:52:00-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Ultimately their authority comes from the crown. Is the king really, really wanting to know what someone is up to? Or are they overstepping their authority? Guessing that is IC, and whether someone pisses off the crown or just pisses off someone that is trying to use the observers for their own ends depends on circumstances. And is it worth it to make an enemy rather than see what they are up to before telling them to buzz off
2017-09-03 22:52:20-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: ^
2017-09-03 22:52:42-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Can the King call his banners against a Marquis? Yes, yes I think he could.
2017-09-03 22:52:57-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: What does that even have to do with anything Wash?
2017-09-03 22:53:38-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: You asked what sort of trouble it might bring.
2017-09-03 22:53:42-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: I mean, it's a (very extreme) example of what sort of trouble it could bring.
2017-09-03 22:53:46-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: That's kind of the ultimate trouble, right?
2017-09-03 22:53:48-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: That is extreme...
2017-09-03 22:53:56-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: Conceivably, anything! Or nothing! I don't control players, or rp.
2017-09-03 22:53:58-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: I get it though Hellfrog.
2017-09-03 22:54:04-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Hellfrog....
2017-09-03 22:54:16-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Yeah, but like, the king being like, 'You told Messenger Bob to go off, I am now declaring you outlaw and marching with a hundred thousand men' might make some people wonder about his sanity too
2017-09-03 22:54:30-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: I was going to say...
2017-09-03 22:54:40-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: more likely your liege might come to you and be like "why are you hassling observers? now I have to get hassled? KEEP THE HASSLE AWAY FROM ME"
2017-09-03 22:54:46-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: Fatima...
2017-09-03 22:54:47-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: That
2017-09-03 22:54:55-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Hellfrog...
2017-09-03 22:54:58-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima chuckles.
2017-09-03 22:55:05-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: 'Why you gotta hurt me bb' is basically the sum up picking needless fights
2017-09-03 22:55:09-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: In my experience
2017-09-03 22:55:11-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: don't hassle the hoff
2017-09-03 22:55:28-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Never.
2017-09-03 22:55:50-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Anyways, did I miss any questions before we wrap this up? I'll probably have ooc hours more often in whatever chat channel
2017-09-03 22:56:04-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot thinks you should!
2017-09-03 22:56:17-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: In what cases would conflict be railroaded/retconned, if any?
2017-09-03 22:56:26-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: PK
2017-09-03 22:56:27-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot: maybe the Observers next to make sure we are all on theme? :P
2017-09-03 22:56:28-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Conflict against new players
2017-09-03 22:56:45-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Someone being clearly ooc in a way that's contrary to the sensible motivations of a character
2017-09-03 22:56:47-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: something obviously OOCly motivated
2017-09-03 22:57:08-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: PK, as far as I'm aware, is on the board but strictly regulated, Fatima. At least, in as far as I'm aware.
2017-09-03 22:57:30-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Actions that are so disproportionate they don't make any sense would probably get a check. 'Well, frank sent me a messenger saying maple bacon sucks, I'm calling my banners and marching'
2017-09-03 22:57:38-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: THe only thing I vaguely asked would be a general idea of what THralls faced but it is not actually important/
2017-09-03 22:58:11-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: It's a shitty life, Sameera, but it probably varies depending on their 'job'. IDK, I'm not really into writing a day in the life of subjugation, I hadn't thought about it, deeply.
2017-09-03 22:58:14-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: They would have to cross the boundary into something so off it's immersion breaking imo, which would fall under any RP, not just conflict
2017-09-03 22:59:02-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: Alright, which brings me to my next little bit...
2017-09-03 22:59:03-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: The only reason I ask is because I have been Icly asked what it was like for Sameera.
2017-09-03 22:59:18-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Say it vaguely sucked and you weren't paid for worked
2017-09-03 22:59:30-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: She pushes it off with 'Life was life. What does it matter?'
2017-09-03 22:59:40-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: coo
2017-09-03 22:59:45-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot thinks just like in slavery there's varying degrees of terrible. Some are treated like servants any where else, some are faced with brutality
2017-09-03 22:59:52-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: It seems like conflict generally brings a lot of OOC tension here. In the case of conflict causing OOC tension, would it be retconned for that reason? Or railroaded in a different direction by staff?
2017-09-03 22:59:59-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: Or along those lines. Or she just flately asks them what business is it of yours?'
2017-09-03 23:00:18-0400 [-] [Thrax] Margot: Margot treats the thralls in the house exceedingly well, but then has gulags in the north where hardened criminals are mining iron.
2017-09-03 23:00:18-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: I really hate retcons
2017-09-03 23:00:24-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: I'm glad.
2017-09-03 23:00:28-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: It's really unlikely unless like I log in and 50 people are dead for no reasons
2017-09-03 23:00:36-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: I'll work on it!
2017-09-03 23:01:01-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: The Sword of a Thousand Truths!
2017-09-03 23:01:47-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: And I dislike rail roading, but I think me being hands off was more damaging than I expected early on. It's more likely I might talk to someone about their story and whether it makes sense and is being conscentious if it's creating a really toxic environment
2017-09-03 23:02:37-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: Awesome, sounds legit. Thanks for clearing that up!
2017-09-03 23:03:39-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: One last question... "Can you comment on the rumor that you have watched the 1987 Cult Scifi flick Gor?"
2017-09-03 23:03:41-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: What I talk to people immediately about is more like people being really insulting or talking poorly ooc about other players. There's been a lot of heated IC conflicts that happened, and a few that killed characters and everyone seemed on board and fine
2017-09-03 23:03:54-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Man
2017-09-03 23:03:57-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: I haven't
2017-09-03 23:04:00-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: But sadly
2017-09-03 23:04:03-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: SO SADLY
2017-09-03 23:04:14-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Huh.
2017-09-03 23:04:16-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: That comes up a lot due to how much A Thing some people really wanna make it
2017-09-03 23:04:40-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: I have not seen it either. I was trying to figure out what your 'Prisoners of Gor' comment meant previously.
2017-09-03 23:04:55-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: I always feel out of the group when movies come up. I don't watch movies, really./
2017-09-03 23:04:59-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Speculation got a little hairy.
2017-09-03 23:05:01-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: It's me making fun of the incredibly popular sex slavery tropes that we specifically prohibit
2017-09-03 23:05:11-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog has also not seen it.
2017-09-03 23:05:16-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Okay.
2017-09-03 23:05:22-0400 [-] [Thrax] Edward: Typically how much plot do you pre-determine for any given story?
2017-09-03 23:05:23-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: But that's mostly because that kind of subject matter makes me uncomfortable.
2017-09-03 23:05:33-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: So that's not the reason for this event right now? No sex slavery has been occurring?
2017-09-03 23:05:46-0400 [-] [Thrax] Fatima: Wait, Apostate you're saying PK is a thing depending on how badly people want it??
2017-09-03 23:05:54-0400 [-] [Thrax] Dagon: What do you think Dagon is? A Duke? No.
2017-09-03 23:05:57-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: We're not stating no sexual exploitation happens in this world, we're saying we are not going to tell or support stories about it.
2017-09-03 23:06:07-0400 [-] [Thrax] Hellfrog: that is also covered in the rules helpfiles
2017-09-03 23:06:18-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: I approve of this message.
2017-09-03 23:06:49-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: PK is more case by case but I just would only want people to answer that it seems critical to a story and is justified, generally. Now to Edward, that's a good question
2017-09-03 23:07:04-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: I tend to think less of outcomes and more of the different variables involved
2017-09-03 23:08:27-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Like for season 1 I was like, there's these antagonists and they want Y, and these antagonists and they want Z, and these guys that want X, and let's see how players deal with them. Didn't go remotely how I thought it would, and I more enjoy rolling with it. but at the same time you could say since groups A, B, C exist and X, Y, Z are possibilities then that could be pre-planning but it is extremely rare that an outcome is off the table
2017-09-03 23:08:37-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: I wasn't really joking about making an alternate grid if Arx was destroyed
2017-09-03 23:08:52-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Sweet!
2017-09-03 23:09:27-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: I mean. That's a lot of work. We wouldn't have anywhere to RP. Please don't let them blow up Arx.
2017-09-03 23:09:44-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: I didn't think the Gyre would be a thing for like, another year at all. I didn't plan for him to come up in the first season or now
2017-09-03 23:10:31-0400 [-] [Thrax] Edward: Will old clues be cycled out of the system that are no longer story or theme relevant?
2017-09-03 23:11:35-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Eventually yea
2017-09-03 23:13:05-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: Question. On that. If someone is working on an investigation that gets resolved (maybe before they joined) will you let them know?
2017-09-03 23:13:35-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: investigations automatically resolve when they get a clue and remove themselves, so should be automatic
2017-09-03 23:13:38-0400 [-] [Thrax] Arcelia is enjoying the Gyre Stuff. xD
2017-09-03 23:14:09-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: Like say Sameera is trying to find an assassin who is killing High Lords. HOWEVEr, those she is involving and her don't know it was ssorted out. Will you just leave them on it?
2017-09-03 23:14:39-0400 [-] [Thrax] Titania is enjoying the Gyre stuff as well even if fustrated at times but it has really allowed Tiana to grow as a chracter
2017-09-03 23:15:38-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: I try not to have plotlines die silently, Sam, without a really good reason. Like I think most people know that researching the Silence is probably not necessary. That was a very very public resolution
2017-09-03 23:15:52-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Most things will be
2017-09-03 23:16:05-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: And if there is a very good reason it should stay secret, then I think it remains valid to investigate
2017-09-03 23:16:09-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Search white journals. Those are IC information, so it's a good way to make sure you're not going back over someone else's trial.
2017-09-03 23:16:10-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: To determine those reasons
2017-09-03 23:16:30-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: Noo. I mean, like, it's timed off the boards or something. Like, the amount of people Max said she could free timed off and as far as I know there is no way to refind that proclaimation?
2017-09-03 23:17:15-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: Alas, I am non-combat so, I don't get to be involved in more 'resolving' stuff. Since a lot of it seems to be combat.
2017-09-03 23:17:18-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: if someone is investigating something redundant yeah I'd probably tell them if I thought of it
2017-09-03 23:18:24-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: Also, Wash, White Journals might not give specific details. For, example, Sameera and those currently involved do not write about the investigation we're working on.
2017-09-03 23:18:58-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: Sam just makes vague notions of 'Hey, I should make my will.'
2017-09-03 23:19:32-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Yeah, but sometimes.
2017-09-03 23:20:25-0400 [-] [Thrax] Titania: Hey Apos do you mind if I page you a sec
2017-09-03 23:24:58-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Anyways, any other questions guys? I think that's about it.
2017-09-03 23:25:48-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Questioned out. Can we get a hip hip hooray?!
2017-09-03 23:26:02-0400 [-] [Thrax] Alarie: WOOT WOOT
2017-09-03 23:26:03-0400 [-] [Thrax] Wash: Hip hip Hooray! Staff!
2017-09-03 23:26:41-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: D'aww. Okay thanks guys
2017-09-03 23:26:55-0400 [-] [Thrax] Harald: We ready to start?
2017-09-03 23:27:01-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: lol
2017-09-03 23:27:01-0400 [-] [Thrax] Sameera: Haha
2017-09-03 23:27:09-0400 [-] [Thrax] Harald XD
2017-09-03 23:27:14-0400 [-] [Thrax] Apostate: Okay I'll send the log to tehom to be cleaned up and tossed up