Written By Tabitha
Aug. 12, 2018, 6:45 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
I'm not sure I have any coherent or meaningful additions to make to the discussion regarding morality versus law. My talents lie with expressing words, ideas and concepts through the medium of painting rather than those spoken or written.
However, I believe my cousin Kenna is a good-hearted and kind woman who speaks and acts with a fiery conviction that comes from a deep empathy for others. I also believe, that in a situation where there's no possibility of finding an alternative solution to the ethical quandary at hand, it's obviously preferable not to let a starving child perish from the deprivation of food. I think that this was the crux of the debate, but perhaps I'm wrong. I'm often wrong. I wasn't present during the conversation, so it may well be the case.
With this in mind, I feel compelled to fortify my efforts in aiding the Silver Order in any way I can. And to my cousin Bethany, I suggest that it might be an excellent idea to get together and make some plans as to how we can use Mercier and Whitehawk resources to effect some additional positive change. It's not as though we don't have the raw materials to work with, after all.
However, I believe my cousin Kenna is a good-hearted and kind woman who speaks and acts with a fiery conviction that comes from a deep empathy for others. I also believe, that in a situation where there's no possibility of finding an alternative solution to the ethical quandary at hand, it's obviously preferable not to let a starving child perish from the deprivation of food. I think that this was the crux of the debate, but perhaps I'm wrong. I'm often wrong. I wasn't present during the conversation, so it may well be the case.
With this in mind, I feel compelled to fortify my efforts in aiding the Silver Order in any way I can. And to my cousin Bethany, I suggest that it might be an excellent idea to get together and make some plans as to how we can use Mercier and Whitehawk resources to effect some additional positive change. It's not as though we don't have the raw materials to work with, after all.
Written By Shard
Aug. 12, 2018, 6:30 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
Relationship Note on Bethany
Where I grew up, when children starved, there was no one to negotiate food from, because no one had food. /If/ there was someone anywhere nearby with food, that was someone behind walls, with soldiers who would kill you on sight, more soldiers than you had people, let alone warriors, well fed soldiers with better armor and weapons, whose laws state that giving food to us would not have simply been illegal, but treason.
Where I grew up, when the children were starving, everyone was starving. That was Winter when something went wrong. It's easy to make moral judgments and have cute little philosophical debates about right and wrong when you aren't trying to figure out how you and everyone you know survive.
Where I grew up, when the children were starving, everyone was starving. That was Winter when something went wrong. It's easy to make moral judgments and have cute little philosophical debates about right and wrong when you aren't trying to figure out how you and everyone you know survive.
Written By Arik
Aug. 12, 2018, 6:22 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
Lord Arik Halfshav's treatise on philosophical questions
It would appear that on the date of 5/19/1009 AR there was a wildfire of philosophical debate that entirely misses the point. I write this brief treatise on the topic in the hopes future readers that care about my thoughts might avoid such issues. If I am still alive, then this white is not meant for you. Thus we begin.
First let us establish that philosophical questions are not real. They pose situations in which you have but two choices and to answer in any way that is not one or the other is considered 'cheating' the question or 'dodging' the issue. Let it also be said that the majority of philosophical prompts are intended to be divisive. You are meant to answer differently than someone else and then qualify or argue the point. They are intellectual exercises meant to engage and perhaps in the loftiest of circles create policy. Should a Godsworn or a Magistrate feel the need to enter such discussions in a serious manner meant to reach a conclusion than such is their choice and such is their duty but for others I must ask to what end?
Second let us acknowledge the hypothetical is ridiculous. The argument which seems to have blazed through the city since the Salon meeting appears to be some variant of would you steal food for a starving child. Well I could do many things for a starving child. I could adopt them. I could buy food. I could take them to a soup kitchen. I can throw them off a bridge. None of these answers are permissable per the first point. You cannot dodge the issue. It is like asking Lord Arik Halfshav, Sword of Whitehold should High Lord Darren Redrain and Vala Khanne Halfshav be hanging from certain doom with each in your hand. Who would you save? I could say anything, would I ever be in that situation? Would I even follow through with whatever I say now? How about if you had all the money in the world would you give it all away? Perhaps it should be is it better to have love and lost or never have loved at all? Perhaps you see my point.
Thirdly and to the specific question at hand let me interject some blunt realism and perhaps uncomfortable consideration for you the future Peerage I am writing too... If children or -any- of your commoners are starving. You have failed as a Liege. It does not matter if it is war or famine or any number of potential extreme circumstances. The duty of nobility that comes with your privilege is to protect, lead, and administer. You should have provided more jobs, you should have imported more food, you should have realized you had more commoners thant resources, mayhap you should have avoided that skirmish with your neighbors. Whether it be Crownlands, Oathlands, Mourning Isle, the Hundred Cities, or the Northlands. Whether it be Whitehold or Farhaven. Wherever commoners suffer their Lieges have erred. To decry this as unfair or untrue begs the question what of the people, your people, who are starving? Do they have the power to change their circumstances? Do they have the ability to bring fish from the coasts or wheat from the Oathlands? They have but the ability to leave you, their Liege, and seek greener pastures or starve where they are unable to go.
Thus we end with the summation. Philosophical questions are for idle debate. They are not real they are meant for entertainment or intellectual exercise. The reality of such questions is often far harsher than the questions themselves. Mayhap you future Peers will not have such problems. I doubt the world will truly be such a place by the time I am dead but one can hope.
It would appear that on the date of 5/19/1009 AR there was a wildfire of philosophical debate that entirely misses the point. I write this brief treatise on the topic in the hopes future readers that care about my thoughts might avoid such issues. If I am still alive, then this white is not meant for you. Thus we begin.
First let us establish that philosophical questions are not real. They pose situations in which you have but two choices and to answer in any way that is not one or the other is considered 'cheating' the question or 'dodging' the issue. Let it also be said that the majority of philosophical prompts are intended to be divisive. You are meant to answer differently than someone else and then qualify or argue the point. They are intellectual exercises meant to engage and perhaps in the loftiest of circles create policy. Should a Godsworn or a Magistrate feel the need to enter such discussions in a serious manner meant to reach a conclusion than such is their choice and such is their duty but for others I must ask to what end?
Second let us acknowledge the hypothetical is ridiculous. The argument which seems to have blazed through the city since the Salon meeting appears to be some variant of would you steal food for a starving child. Well I could do many things for a starving child. I could adopt them. I could buy food. I could take them to a soup kitchen. I can throw them off a bridge. None of these answers are permissable per the first point. You cannot dodge the issue. It is like asking Lord Arik Halfshav, Sword of Whitehold should High Lord Darren Redrain and Vala Khanne Halfshav be hanging from certain doom with each in your hand. Who would you save? I could say anything, would I ever be in that situation? Would I even follow through with whatever I say now? How about if you had all the money in the world would you give it all away? Perhaps it should be is it better to have love and lost or never have loved at all? Perhaps you see my point.
Thirdly and to the specific question at hand let me interject some blunt realism and perhaps uncomfortable consideration for you the future Peerage I am writing too... If children or -any- of your commoners are starving. You have failed as a Liege. It does not matter if it is war or famine or any number of potential extreme circumstances. The duty of nobility that comes with your privilege is to protect, lead, and administer. You should have provided more jobs, you should have imported more food, you should have realized you had more commoners thant resources, mayhap you should have avoided that skirmish with your neighbors. Whether it be Crownlands, Oathlands, Mourning Isle, the Hundred Cities, or the Northlands. Whether it be Whitehold or Farhaven. Wherever commoners suffer their Lieges have erred. To decry this as unfair or untrue begs the question what of the people, your people, who are starving? Do they have the power to change their circumstances? Do they have the ability to bring fish from the coasts or wheat from the Oathlands? They have but the ability to leave you, their Liege, and seek greener pastures or starve where they are unable to go.
Thus we end with the summation. Philosophical questions are for idle debate. They are not real they are meant for entertainment or intellectual exercise. The reality of such questions is often far harsher than the questions themselves. Mayhap you future Peers will not have such problems. I doubt the world will truly be such a place by the time I am dead but one can hope.
Written By Ailith
Aug. 12, 2018, 6:20 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
Relationship Note on Bethany
How lovely of you to suggest and extremely generous of House Mercier to make such a pledge, Goodwoman Bethany. It is coincidence that I inform you of the upcoming holiday of High Sun.
Archlector Etienne and I will be hosting High Sun at the Shrine of Gild. As you're aware, this is a time when hospitality is extended to all and we're reminded of our commitment to sanctuary. Families are all welcome to dine and feast this night. Any and all excess meals are donated to local struggling families and children, orphanages, food kitchens, and travelers.
And for those in a charitable mood, there will be donation boxes to the rear of the Shrine for the Faith of the Pantheon, the Knights of Solace, and the Mercies of Lagoma -- all which will contribute to our charitable acts across the Compact to include feeding the starving families and children as well as educational programs to benefit those struggling to find employment.
Archlector Etienne and I will be hosting High Sun at the Shrine of Gild. As you're aware, this is a time when hospitality is extended to all and we're reminded of our commitment to sanctuary. Families are all welcome to dine and feast this night. Any and all excess meals are donated to local struggling families and children, orphanages, food kitchens, and travelers.
And for those in a charitable mood, there will be donation boxes to the rear of the Shrine for the Faith of the Pantheon, the Knights of Solace, and the Mercies of Lagoma -- all which will contribute to our charitable acts across the Compact to include feeding the starving families and children as well as educational programs to benefit those struggling to find employment.
Written By Ahrsen
Aug. 12, 2018, 6:12 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
An interesting meeting at the docks, I've never met the Crimson Blades before. First time for everything!
Written By Monique
Aug. 12, 2018, 5:41 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
On the morality of stealing:
Why separate principle from practice? Why can't it be both immoral and moral?
Think in terms of 'and' instead of 'or'. Yes, stealing is immoral and I'm going to do it anyway, for the right reasons.
The hypothetical 'I', of course.
Why separate principle from practice? Why can't it be both immoral and moral?
Think in terms of 'and' instead of 'or'. Yes, stealing is immoral and I'm going to do it anyway, for the right reasons.
The hypothetical 'I', of course.
Written By Bethany
Aug. 12, 2018, 5:41 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
Relationship Note on Ailith
You have a lot of people here who are saying that there's nothing more important than keeping the hypothetical children of Arvum fed. Maybe this is a good chance for you to organize them into doing that in the real world.
If you manage to organize something, Seraph, Mercier will contribute.
If you manage to organize something, Seraph, Mercier will contribute.
Written By Reigna
Aug. 12, 2018, 5:38 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
Relationship Note on Coraline
I have heard before about this 'girls night' or 'Skirts and Gowns' event, but I find myself baffled over the reason for them. Can someone educate me to the purpose of such an event? I sincerely am asking because I simply am not sure what the point is. Are men truly barred from the event? If so... why? What does one do at such an event?
Written By Ailith
Aug. 12, 2018, 5:38 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
Relationship Note on Coraline
Rum?
Written By Coraline
Aug. 12, 2018, 5:30 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
Relationship Note on Harper
I love this girls night idea, I am down for that!
Written By Ailith
Aug. 12, 2018, 5:24 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
Relationship Note on Bethany
I was that starving child. There were many who refused.
But the Faith, my local Seraph and the Mercies, and a very kind and old innkeeper that fed and rescued my family and me.
There are lawful ways to acquire food. And there are temptations to break the law to fill a belly that only had dirt for substance -- so many temptations. I refused to break the law, but others did not. I understand that plight. It is why I will never turn away one who seek comfort and aid.
But the Faith, my local Seraph and the Mercies, and a very kind and old innkeeper that fed and rescued my family and me.
There are lawful ways to acquire food. And there are temptations to break the law to fill a belly that only had dirt for substance -- so many temptations. I refused to break the law, but others did not. I understand that plight. It is why I will never turn away one who seek comfort and aid.
Written By Bethany
Aug. 12, 2018, 5:08 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
This is ridiculous.
In what situation could you not just negotiate for the food? Everyone has a price, and even without money, labor has value. And this is assuming whoever owns the food wouldn't just give it free of charge because most people aren't monsters who can look a starving child in the eye and say no.
The question being asked here isn't whether it's moral to break the law to feed a starving child. The question that's being asked is whether it's moral to break the law because that's easier than getting food for the child lawfully.
I'd like to know what all of you who are arguing that life is more important than law and order are doing to feed actual starving children. There's a lot of money and collected influence represented in this debate. Seems like it could be put to better use. But that's just me.
In what situation could you not just negotiate for the food? Everyone has a price, and even without money, labor has value. And this is assuming whoever owns the food wouldn't just give it free of charge because most people aren't monsters who can look a starving child in the eye and say no.
The question being asked here isn't whether it's moral to break the law to feed a starving child. The question that's being asked is whether it's moral to break the law because that's easier than getting food for the child lawfully.
I'd like to know what all of you who are arguing that life is more important than law and order are doing to feed actual starving children. There's a lot of money and collected influence represented in this debate. Seems like it could be put to better use. But that's just me.
Written By Yasmine
Aug. 12, 2018, 4:31 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
Relationship Note on Isabeau
My thanks for your kind words. The gods have been exceedingly kind to me thus far. I shall pray that they are toward you as well.
Written By Octavia
Aug. 12, 2018, 4:21 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
Many of those who stand accused before me wish that they had paid attention to the minor details when they find out how important they can be.
Written By Katarina
Aug. 12, 2018, 4:16 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
Minor details, Lady Octavia.
Written By Octavia
Aug. 12, 2018, 4:15 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
I would not say that the offense is so much 'tolerable' as it is 'understandable', but the rest of your statement is correct. The law looks more favorably upon unlawful acts coming from righteous intent than it does on those motivated by evil intent.
Written By Katarina
Aug. 12, 2018, 4:10 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
Vague and undefined circumstances in which the question in particular is applied makes it harder for one to rationalize whether the question is worth delving deeper below the surface. But since you defined a circumstance I can explore, I'm more than happy to bite for the sake of seeing where this might go.
As a disciple of Sentinel and one who prides herself in attempting to always advocate for the truth and just, I comitted an unlawful act willfully with the intent of lessening the suffrage of one starving child at the expense of another. It does not make it any more or less fundamentally wrong, but it is an offense that can be tolerated because my heart was in a good place. I am not spared from the crime, but those who uphold the law may take that into consideration and adjust my punishment to fit the crime accordingly.
As a disciple of Sentinel and one who prides herself in attempting to always advocate for the truth and just, I comitted an unlawful act willfully with the intent of lessening the suffrage of one starving child at the expense of another. It does not make it any more or less fundamentally wrong, but it is an offense that can be tolerated because my heart was in a good place. I am not spared from the crime, but those who uphold the law may take that into consideration and adjust my punishment to fit the crime accordingly.
Written By Harper
Aug. 12, 2018, 4:08 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
Relationship Note on Thena
Thanks for letting me be an auxiliary and help out. And thanks even more for letting my partner help out too. She's got a big heart and I'm real proud that she's doing so well.
I still think we need to get Princess Cora and do that girl's night soon, though.
I still think we need to get Princess Cora and do that girl's night soon, though.
Written By Riagnon
Aug. 12, 2018, 4:04 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
Don't be a fool, follow the rules and you'll always be cool!
Written By Octavia
Aug. 12, 2018, 4:03 p.m.(5/19/1009 AR)
Relationship Note on Katarina
As long as you are willing to suffer the consequences, though the court may look on this journal exchange unfavorably during your sentencing.
Sometimes the just action is to break the law, but that does not mean that you are free from the consequences of breaking said law.
Sometimes the just action is to break the law, but that does not mean that you are free from the consequences of breaking said law.
Please note that the scholars may take some time preparing your journal for others to read.